6.63b - The Really Atrocious Lineup
Posted by The DS Prince on October 5th, 2009 | Visited 8959 times, 40 so far todayI note with an amount of sadness that some of the followers of my old blog were disappointed that I was no longer writing there. Rest assured that I myself must suffer the greatest pain of not being able to write with a full amount of freedom, and that I am highly grateful to Drew and the rest of the staff that at least I can still have a lease of blogging life even though I no longer write on my own.
On that old blog, I issued a challenge 4 versions ago - 6.59 - that Dota-ers should prove to the frog that certain buffed heroes back then would really make it into the league. And I myself predicted that one such hero would be highly used (and banned) by leaguers - even though, I can tell you, I have no s**t amount of league experience at all. My crystal ball of looking into the future is my own gut instinct, and common sense.
4 versions later - the current time - we hear leaguers clamoring for yet more balance, as if there wasn’t enough balance. Or rather, if there is any balance at all. Not too long ago a leaguer himself suggested reverting back (at least in part) to the 6.48b era. We wonder, wasn’t 6.48b history because of certain imbalances?
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I think what I will say in the following will not be understood easily except by those who are very familiar with the Dota league scene. The most powerful Dota heroes right now, in 6.63b, are not the super-DPS like Troll or Anti-mage. It is not the “pro” heroes like Admiral, Nevermore or POTM, though they can look more powerful than they really are under correct circumstances (read: league).
It is the Really Atrocious Lineup. Namely Shadow Shaman, Demon Witch and Bane Elemental, who are the most powerful heroes in Dota right now.
I expect surprise and the question: Why? All 3 heroes share a thing in common - they have multiple disables. They are not excellent physical damage dealers - very poor in fact - but they allow the “pro” heroes to rack up kills because they do not allow enemies to escape or do any s**t to retaliate. However they do have excellent spell damage - Lion has his Finger of Death, Bane’s ultimate disables and damages a lot as well, and Rhasta has a somewhat spammable nuke. Hence two things happen when you encounter any of the trio - you can’t do anything to retaliate, and your as* gets burned quickly. Then the “pros” jump in for the last hit. And you think those heroes are “pro”? Indeed!
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However even within the trio there can be ranks of power. And Rhasta is number 1 in that trio.
Both Lion and Bane depend on last-hits heavily to earn creep kills. Lion’s Impale, although an AoE spell, is very unreliable for securing mass creep stats due to its line range. Creeps do not line up to fight in Dota. However Rhasta’s 300-damage nuke works in many ways like POTM’s Starfall which “pros” love so much, due to the fact that it’s very easy to rake in creep wave gold. And that is certainly the case.
Rhasta, unlike the other two, can pump himself up very quickly with items if he wishes to, and if that happens his killing power can increase nearly tenfold. This is a major headache for many players whether league or pub. Let’s imagine for a while that Rhasta level 16 has a Guinsoo already, what happens? You get Vood00-ed, you get Shackled, you get Hexed, then Voodoo’s cooldown refreshes very soon (I’m not kidding - time the duration yourself) and you get Voodoo-ed again. All while Rhasta may have fried you with his Lightning once or twice, and some “pro” hero is whacking away jubilantly. If the fight is to be AoE, no problem. Set up serpent wards, Lightning away and disable anyone who is a threat immediately, up to 3 valid targets.
This is my favorite: Rhasta with Blink Dagger. The “pro” hero pretends everything is fine while the target happily whacks the creeps thinking the coast is clear. Then Rhasta blinks in and does his job. 8 seconds later, mission accomplished and most probably the “pro” hero is a few hundred gold richer. Almost always, I repeat - ALMOST ALWAYS - any of the trio possesses a Blink Dagger, Rhasta most of all, and death is certain every 15 seconds, if there were that many heroes to be killed.
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Clearly, the leaguers understand this. And this is why you see, in the recent Pick League XII season, fu*kingly obscene bans on Rhasta in almost every game.
And many other replays you can find in Playdota’s forum. When the leaguers do not get balance, they impose it, via the fascist -CM mode. Such a hero so trepidly feared by leaguers that it is banned in practically every 6.63b game. Read: 6.63b, the latest, most “balanced” version that the frog has given us. Why so? 
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Rhasta is a powerful asset in any team, and is especially useful when accompanying a DPS hero. I’m not doing a guide here, so figure it out yourself why I said so. I already gave hints in the above. Counter_Force[X]
requested an example lineup involving Rhasta. I don’t usually oblige such requests for my own reasons, but one of my favorites would be:
Rhasta, Puck!, Slardar + 2 heroes of your choice, usually stun or AoE depending on enemy lineup.
For something this big, this article is late in stating Rhasta’s strength in Dota. I only hoped that my old blog did help some people who wanted warnings of what the future of Dota would hold. My crystal ball suggests that unless the frog figures out a drafting method that mandates a balance of DPS, AoE and disable, the RAL or Really Atrocious Lineup Rhasta-Atropos-Lion will continue to be banned in Dota until kingdom come. Pubbies, still unaware of the creeping corporatization of Dota, will continue to specialize in DPS. The coming DPSgeddon will seal the doom of many heroes, while ensuring the continued dominance of the RAL.
What is this DPSgeddon about? I plan to write about that in the future.
October 5th, 2009 at 2:06 pm
I completely agree with everything said here. I remember a time I used Rhasta (in 6.61 i think) against their Barathrum who had SnY, Heart, MoM and PT. I had a guinsoo and Aghanims and mass disabled him so bad. The game was already 60 minutes or so, I had to sell my Dagger to get Refresher. I was shackling, hexing none stop with my Serpants attacking him. Shackles+Voodoo+Hex and 2 seconds later, shackles CD finishes so I can disable him again. Good thing he didnt buy a BKB though, but I think that’s why Bane is there for.
October 5th, 2009 at 2:56 pm
i love your blog posts hahaha!
October 5th, 2009 at 3:13 pm
love it. so true. never heard of that acronym before, but it makes sense. kinda funny since all 3 of those heroes are my style, while i used to and have since gone away from the DPS heroes.
October 5th, 2009 at 5:34 pm
so when weren’t disables king of leagues? heroes like Rhasta and Bane who can disable multiple heroes and do aoe damage are always top picks
and Rhasta and Bane have been nerfed in the past few versions, so Icefrog is working on nerfing them, that and DotA will never be perfectly balanced anyway
October 5th, 2009 at 5:39 pm
This is something very close to my heart, I have always favoured disablers in any game and well: Icefrog does indeed need to make disablers a part of the “support heroes” as we call heroes like CM, Warlock etc now just because of AOE abilities!
However may I say that as a disabler (Not team player), Bane is a better choice than Rhasta? Rhasta needs another disable (Eul’s) to help with his poor MS and its Cyclone is pathetic compared to Nightmare.
October 5th, 2009 at 6:08 pm
frog can nerf guinsoo’s HEX to lessen the threat of “multiple disable”. like change cooldown from 35 to 70 …or change mana costs from 100 to 200 …or change casts range from 800 to 400.
rhasta, lion and bane are old heroes. how come they suddenly became a threat at 6.63? could it be that heroes are seasonal? or maybe players/leaguers are just amazed to the new maps. they’ll try the new heroes and changes, make some experiments, and if they’re not satisfied they go back to the old heroes and abuses their abilities.
October 5th, 2009 at 7:46 pm
i fully agree tbh
troll basically never stuns anymore , pa is just nerfed.
str heroes have heart fully nerfed its just dumb
shadow shaman is too overpowered
5 second shackle, 4 second hex can kill anything !
October 5th, 2009 at 8:06 pm
hey i got mentioned!
tenfold is a scary word
October 5th, 2009 at 9:10 pm
I think you missed out that 6.6x is the Dark Seer version too.
But you have to keep in mind, Rhasta is the only potential Late-gamer out of your RAL list. Lion and Atropos lose effectiveness in League games. It’s a trend that I noticed, and games with them usually need to be accompanied by even more disables. Rhasta imo, is the RAL on his own.
Nice read.
October 5th, 2009 at 11:07 pm
we all agree that disables are a pain in the butt. but lest we forget that targets like rhasta tend to be focus fired before he can do his job properly. This is why leagues involve heavy warding to counter gb’s. and yeah.. pls dont suggest that rhasta needs to be fat. he doesnt. you can pump a load of items on him. but the maximum effectiveness stops once you get a guinsoo, refresher, eul’s and blink dagger. anything more is a plus. and if you do get all those items(which almost never happens” somehting is seriously wrong with your opponent.
and no. guinsoo doesnt need to be nerfed, in case you havent realised. the VOODOO spells for lion and rhasta have a range of 500. that is enough for nerfing. most stuns can travel further than 500. so no. no nerfing guinsoo pls(note to quale) 70 seconds just… makes guinsoo seem stupid.
i guess the introduction of items like pipe has made this heroes more popular.. as they can do their jobs without having to worry bout dying off aoe spells.
October 6th, 2009 at 3:43 am
[...] Really Atrocious Lineup. DS Blog - DotA, Warcraft, Gaming and Blizzard News 6.63b - The Really Atrocious Lineup Do you guys agree that those 3 are the best heroes in the current metagame? Discuss. [...]
October 6th, 2009 at 5:22 am
Yes.. and not only that.. Bane can survive early game with brain sap.. harass with nightmare.. those things really piss off people.. that’s why I always want a double lane with eza when i’m bane
somehow, Icefrog has a fetish for disablers…
every one of the “RAL” is imba in another way other than disables..
Rhasta has a good last hitting skill which is forked lightning ofc like caspian said.
Bane has a frigging high last hitting capability because of his high base damage early game..
Lion can actually spam impale with manadrain.. as long as his enemies are that dumb enough to hit with while he’s channeling this spell..
imo though,
Bane is a killer at early and support at late game..
Lion has a b*tchy combo w/dagon at early game and can kinda contribute some damage at late game with guinsoo and other int items…
Rhasta will always be a support.. although some heroes usually get last-hits with his nuke.
October 6th, 2009 at 5:44 am
As noted on Playdota:-
Re: TRA-The Really Atrocious Lineup.
Whoever wrote is obviously a lower skilled player, ie pubs/ta/sig/dl etc, Lion is in every game yes, but he never draws a ban, he’s just a good support hero, best one there is. Bane could be called imba in current version, sure, but with the manacost increase yet to fully be playtested, same with Rhasta’s wards cd increase, hard to tell, from what I’ve seen Rhasta is balanced atm, Bane might need a bit more of a nerf but meh.
October 6th, 2009 at 7:31 am
@varun
Wow, this blog even reached Playdota.com?
Hehehe… Coming from what he said (which made no sense whatsoever), he clearly doesn’t understand the competitive scene.
The nerfs were done because of the fact that they are the RAL. As he mentioned himself, it all needs to be “playtested”. I don’t see much significance in the mentioned nerfs. I have a feeling that the nerfs weren’t enough to make teams from picking them in most games.
October 6th, 2009 at 8:22 am
I have to say the comment under that is pretty funny, about how support heroes are never banned. Let’s see if I can find it.
Disables have always been strong, but only semi/carries are considered imba top tier heros. Support is always underrated, because you don’t die to the support, you die to the imba dpser.
October 6th, 2009 at 9:26 am
@Varun
Who cares about statements from people who got it wrong before? They can get it wrong before, they can get it wrong now, they will get it wrong in the future. Tell them I said this
October 6th, 2009 at 10:42 am
@Reiva, JLO: Actually I noted that comment because of the reference here itself in the comment no.11, I dont involve myself in PD which is DA in its second avatar!
Will give them your love if I go there again though
October 6th, 2009 at 10:42 pm
There’s a reason people get stuns in OMG mode. Yeah, you’d beat me in a DPS race with 3 passive abilities but you’re gonna get owned very badly if I disable you 3-4 times. Once we hit late game, it’s all about which DPS hero attacks first and actually does their damage- so again, disable.
General rule: How do you win any game against any other opponent? Find a way to make them not play the game. (Stun/Disable.) When you remove their skill from the equation, it’s over.
October 7th, 2009 at 1:03 am
I agree with Prince completely. On another note, I (the consummate pub-player) enjoy thrashing people with those guys a LOT. In the right hands they are just as powerful alone as they are with a team of leaguers backing them up.
quale suggested something useful a few posts ago - nerf Hex’s cooldown. That would be interesting to see.
Final note - it was quite amusing to see those four games’ line-ups and see TRAL being banned/picked ten times out of a possible twelve…
October 8th, 2009 at 8:25 am
Even before this post on DS blog, I knew these 3 guys were cheated. Almost everytime one of them is on good hands, the team wins. So abused.
October 10th, 2009 at 11:44 pm
[...] case you didn’t know, I got massive support for the RAL post, even warranting a separate coverage in Playdota. For that, thanks a lot to the people who read it [...]
November 20th, 2009 at 10:06 pm
[...] well. What it doesn’t block is Spell damage, which probably contributed to the rise of the RAL(of which each member has the ability to deal significant spell damage), which peaked just as the [...]