6.65 - Our initial thoughts (UPDATED with Murloc & AA)
Posted by The DS Prince on December 25th, 2009 | Visited 14726 times, 6 so far todayWas in a holidaying mood yesterday and was quite (pleasantly) surprised to find out about the frog’s Christmas gift. Who wouldn’t find it cool to see chickens, raccoons, penguins, vultures, Pudges, the Techies, the giant Rosh et al wearing Santa hats? 
But beyond the Christmas spirit, here are some of our initial thoughts about the new map. Mind you this is initial - it isn’t meant to be conclusive. We can’t say anything definitive until later, most probably after the New Year, when we can make enough sense of all these Christmas goodies. For now:
1. The changelogs that affected the 6.64 stars - Visage, Razor, Sniper, Panda and Medusa were nothing much than a reaction to what happened in the SMM. Nevertheless it is welcome to see yet another different incarnation of Visage, though I gotta admit, this particular incarnation is still boring. The pre-6.49 Visage was more interesting, and more fun too 
2. The frog may have made a number of concessions to allow more push and gank action, but as to the DPS he merely transferred the DPSgeddon power from a set of heroes to another. If in 6.64 the DPSgeddon heroes were as discussed previously, now we can say that the next set of DPSgeddon heroes could very well be the Teddy Bear, Bounty Hunter, Nightstalker and Windrunner. Furthermore, unlike the SMM stars who depended so much on “turtling” and “rice-farming”, these future DPS stars will not need turtles at all. “A”-left click and you’re set.
3. A very small, but quite significant buff to heroes like Chen, Krobelus, Furion, Chaos Knight, Twin Head Dragon and Queen of Pain (yeah!).The minor tweaks actually made these heroes that much easier to use.
a) In particular I’m very fond of the fact that QoP may execute her power combo in early game and still have some mana left for another Scream or Blink. It was f*cking hard to do this even when adding extra int to her.
b) Without saying much I’m sure many still remember how the extra movespeed on Krobelus = power. DDDIIIIEEE!!!!!
c) Now few people may agree with me but I’m even more convinced that Chen is a strong favorite of amphibians. Buff after buff in every version, without even a single nerf - this is the Chen wonder for you. Without any plausible or compelling reason, suddenly! New neutral creep camp. (But we like it a lot lot! And we think it’s hot hot 
) Look out above your heads when harpies straddle the skies for the Hextar’s justice - zap!!!
4. It seems that the frog can never extricate himself from his nerf-buff affairs with Warlock and Spectre. I’ve lost count of the number of times both of them were nerfed then buffed a little then nerfed again, like the frog regretted buffing them. WHY should we give the duo SO MUCH attention when it’s clear that only leaguers would care that much about them? Like - Hello, who uses Warlock in a humble game with friends?
5. Urn of Shadows like Magic Wand, has become yet another staple in the rank of boots. Rechargable Healing Salve + Instant wand heals = even lesser fountain trips. I’m sure you know which market segment is this item targeted to.
These are some of our initial thoughts about Icefrog’s Christmas gift. But nothing beats the Santa Hats - sexy!!!!!!
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EDIT: I just realised I forgot to say anything about the new heroes at all.
As above, this is not definitive. Murloc’s stat-stealing passive Essence Shift is most definitely not quite right. If not for the fact that he is pretty squishy and melee (but then again he has a free blink and invisibility AND built-in double Heart regen) the global community would cry outrage almost immediately. Kaldr the AA is not as extreme but there’s still a feeling of OPness about it, in particular the Ice Vortex spell. I’m expecting a “balance” update pretty soon, very much like how Tauren first came out pretty much too strong before being nerfed a bit.
One thing that binds them in common is they have a conditional disable, meaning it works only if certain conditions are fulfilled. So get creative, start discussing about Murloc and Kaldr before New Year arrives, because we will be writing again pretty soon and we like to see what you say about the two Christmas gifts.
December 25th, 2009 at 7:09 am
Krob is probably gonna have a likely comeback in this version. She was pretty much extinct after 6.60 and I dont think I’ve seen her used in pubs for 3 months. The new urn item is a bit OP for roamers imo. If you draw first blood, that’s 200 gold worth of regen you just gained. Other than the fact that Icefrog killed Visage and put a heavy brick on Razer, the rest of the changes were fairly good. Ursa’s new Overpower makes him more dangerous, maybe too dangerous. That’ll just encourage more disable hero.
Who knows how everything will turn out in meta play? One thing’s for sure, Kardr is gonna get some huge nerfs because this guy pwns hard!
December 25th, 2009 at 8:12 am
We need this Santa Hat thingy for some time. I wanna see Santa Lina like real bad!
December 25th, 2009 at 8:20 am
Hmmm.. I gotta disagree there! The 7 sec CD on Jinada with removal of evasion is a nerf (Maim? Who cares??) as he would have struck that crit multiple times within that 7 secs anytime in mid-late game.
Also has anyone tried to see if there is a cap on the max Stats stolen in 60 secs? He could make late game STR heroes cry out in 5-10 seconds and then hunt those other annoying AGI/INT types.
As far as the DPSgeddon being still promoted:- We shall wait for 6.66 and see who is right. I still maintain he has done enough for late game DPS’ers and now is focusing on junglers and gankers.
December 25th, 2009 at 8:28 am
To varun:
Change to gondar’s jinada kungfu means that he is much more useful early game now. Think guaranteed critical & slow without the need for any items. Track a fellah, throw a shuriken here and there, jinada slash for the guaranteed effects and even if the jinada art follower didn’t kill anyone the ultimate still provides for a consolation prize. We like to think this is a boost for gank-DPS on the part of BH.
December 25th, 2009 at 10:27 am
200 gold worth of usables? 100 gold!
First blood aftr a ROAMING player finaly gets the Urn?
Urn’s concept as an item is crappy, plus the fact that it is overpowrd. I expectd a lot more from the new item, and we get a badly designd china. Icefrg probably had toothache wen he conceivd the Urn. Smash it witha sledge and throw the remains out of the game
ursa is finaly bestfriends with bkb
hands down to the asians if thy still manage a turtle
December 25th, 2009 at 11:13 am
I disagree with VSG and Caspian. The new Jinada makes Gondar a better burst damage hunter. The old crit and evasion was shitty anyways. The new crit is 100%, who cares if its just one hit? Gondar isnt built for attackspeed carry anyways, hes a hunter and should be built for 1-2 seconds kills. The maim allows him to get extra hits. Jinada should be gotten after Toss and WW like before since the 22 cd is pretty useless early.
I’ve played a Gondar yesterday and built Deso on him. His hunting ability was drastically better than before due to the maim and critical. 4-5 hits can kill most intelligence heroes. Icefrog made him a better ganker. Gondar never was a really effective late-game carry anyways. This buff is good imo
December 25th, 2009 at 6:09 pm
@DaMan:- That sounds good but I have always played Gondar with a ~5 sec attack after hunt begins, 1-2 second wont help much.. Besides you still have shuriken for the finish and the 5 secs gives you a good 2 crits atleast. Of course if you play him as a mega burst damage dealer (I would like to talk to you on this btw) then maybe, just maybe… Oh and in case you are wondering how I am replying to your comment before it was published:- VIP POWERZ ABUSE!!
December 25th, 2009 at 7:47 pm
Just going to point out that the cange to CK’s blink strike are further obvious attempts at removing mirror skills - First dagger (PA+Veno+Viper(to a lesser extent), then tweaks to blink(magina), chain lightning (Razor+Medusa), unholy rage (razor+Viper) and now this (Riki + CK) as well as Panda vs Gondar. Don’t say I didn’t warn you all those versions ago.
this means watch out for Lion + NA (impale), Lion and Rhasta (Hex) possibly even Laguna Blade + Finger of Death… but who knows… I might be wrong again
Gondar is definitely a buff,
the useless evasion can be surpassed with 1800 gold and the crit always faded in comparison to Bruiza and even Drunken Brawler (especially when combined with further effects from other abilities)
now you are encouraged to take Deso.
the frog is PROMOTING armour desolation strats by removing the old debate over SnY vs Deso on BH.
it is also a very good buff to early game play, you can deviate from the standard WW + shurri by taking 1 level of jinada at level 4.
A guaranteed maim for every gank (and at the start as well)
you should not need more until the later part of midgame,
and guess what?
you level it then.
December 25th, 2009 at 7:54 pm
Someone has been leaking inside information to YOU?
December 25th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
I leak inside information to myself all the time. *hint publish my last comment for all this to make sense*
December 25th, 2009 at 8:21 pm
@Caspy:- Was that meant for me? The “YOU” leaves many an interpretation
December 25th, 2009 at 8:23 pm
Never mind, I read Ghost’s comment.. Just delete this and my earlier comments!
December 25th, 2009 at 8:57 pm
I will publish this one instead. Hehe
December 25th, 2009 at 11:02 pm
Love the Krobelus buff.
Miraculously my beloved Mana Shield didn’t get nerfed, but poor Stone Gaze did D:
December 26th, 2009 at 1:55 am
Referring to Ghost’s statement:
this means watch out for Lion + NA (impale), Lion and Rhasta (Hex) possibly even Laguna Blade + Finger of Death… but who knows… I might be wrong again .
Since Lina was a big hit for pubs,i think Lion was the one who will be having a total surgery[Remake].In my opinion,his skill was going to be having some connections with torturing the enemy,like Shadow Strike.
Gondar and Visage also was going to be a huge hit in this version,since they got some new tricks up their sleeve now.Visage will be a nice help in teambattles,since the Familiar now can stun an area in an attempted suicide.Thats like Warlock dropping 2 Infernals,pure pain to enemies.And pro players also can use it wisely to land a whopping 3 sec stun to enemies,which is enough to destroy the whole enemy team apart.
December 26th, 2009 at 9:12 am
VSG you haxor!!
I agree with Ghost for the most part except getting Jinada at level 4. The 22 second cd makes it useless. imo the skill only becomes good once its fully levelled.
VSG, Gondar is paper anyways, he wont last in a battle if he’s attacking. He’s pretty much like BS, hunt for enemies in ganks and pick up leftovers after a battle. The new Jinada makes his burst DPS more reliable. Most of the time, his critical deals more damage than his Toss (when you have your items and level ofc)
@Aven
Lina and Lion are both equally popular in pubs. But in leagues, Lina is almost never used while Lion is seen in almost every other game. Lion’s disable is more reliable, thus making him a better ganker. Lina’s LSA is too easy to be dodged. Lina is the one who needs the “surgery” and its evident already with the buff to her third skill.
December 26th, 2009 at 6:22 pm
getting jinada early is win:
1. the maim can help early, even if you wont proc another one until much later
2. it can help you last hit far better (it makes you deal 40% more damage at level 1)
3. makes you look cooler
^^
December 26th, 2009 at 9:11 pm
Lina’s skillset makes her role mor defined - Burst dmg.
Lion is too versatile, and that makes him a solid pick. He’s heavy on disables,he’s got 2, plus one pseudo spell disable, but he’s considerd an aggre support. Icefrg is working to make each hero’s spells unique. Lion has 3 shared spells to 3 other heroes, na,rhasta, lina. Impale of NA i think is the one that shud b remade into somthing that affects only one hero. he’s an assassin, yknow. Rhasta voodoo shud be tweaked a bit, and thats a flavorwise opinion. Shamans arent rly users of black magic, arent they? Finger of death i believe shud b turned somewhat into a disable-nuke, simply because lina deservs laguna mor than lion.
These r just my insights rgarding shared spells
December 28th, 2009 at 2:27 am
Lion will be getting the changes.
mainly becuse he is made of 3 clone skills + mana drain.
Lina on the other hand… she is seeing more and more league play now (but mainly outside of league games) people can see the potential and they are experimenting with it.
December 28th, 2009 at 3:29 am
Well u must also look at it in this way…
Lina can stun people in an AoE….Deals way more AoE damage than lion…
Although in leagues a leshrac pick overshadows the need for lina…and Akasha recently…
Well maybe a remake for both lina and lion??
Maybe change lina’s passive to something that grants her survivability since shez like paper anywayz…
December 28th, 2009 at 8:52 am
Well that heroes are always overpowered at first is actually a good idea…since this brings people in actually using them for at least some amount of time instead of their favorites
December 29th, 2009 at 12:20 pm
@Ghost
Lion is an awesome hero, cloned or not. The fact that he is one of the best gankers in the game will get him un-changed (I hope :D)
@sagemsux
Lina deals more AOE, but Lion is a disabler. The 2 heroes are VERY different so they should not be compared in that sense. Yes, they have the same ulti, but that’s the most that should change, if anything. The thing is, Lina and Leshrac are both gank food. Lion is not as gank-prone and he is more useful most of the time due to his disables. If Lion were remade, then Dota would be seriously lacking disables, thus Guinsoo would be overused. That’s just what I think
December 29th, 2009 at 10:33 pm
But there is always going to be an overpowered hero, no matter what happens. Like someone else said, it will allow players to get accustomed to the new heros like aa and murloc. And when the nerfs come into being, they can ease into their own style.
December 30th, 2009 at 9:58 pm
Lina’s passive IS kinda weaksauce. It’s a very DPS oriented skill and sadly she just lacks that. She kinda relies a bit too much on INT items to be able to combo and normally doesn’t give her a big increase in damage so it’s kinda worthless.
December 31st, 2009 at 3:37 am
What was Icefrog thinking with the new heroes? Most people I’ve talked to have been raving about Murloc but for me the real OP hero is AA. This guy is the god of support. Amazing skill synergy not only with himself that gives amazing early game lane control but arguably stays at that same level throughout the game. Even though cold feet is a conditional disable its pretty damn hard to outrun the 740 distance with ice vortex. Chilling Touch is OP for crazy damage dealers- Ursa being the obvious first thought. And then with the TP nerf you have global culling blade. Negative magical resistance+ 3.5 second stun+ spells= gankageddon. I can’t see why this hero wouldn’t be a permaban or permapick every game. Boots in the sideshop and urn of shadows allow for constant ganking. Don’t get me wrong- I’m glad the OP turtle Visage/Panda/Dusa style of play is dying but christ Icefrog has created a monster of a hero- the one support hero to rule them all…
December 31st, 2009 at 5:17 am
[...] some will still disagree and put forth alternative explanations. And now barely 5 days ago, yet 2 more new heroes were introduced in the version of [...]
January 1st, 2010 at 3:12 am
[...] -http://www.dotastrategy.com/blog/665-our-initial-thoughts/ [...]
January 1st, 2010 at 7:03 pm
Well, I think Gondar has turned much more newbie-friendly. I just got the easiest FB EVER. My starting items were: RoB and a Flask. Who needs a ring if you’re invisible all the time?
Early game I harassed with WW while leeching EXP from the creeps, the harassing made my lane opponents (Rhasta and Furion) to back off.
At LV3 or 4 I did a WW + Jinada + WW combo and got my FB
January 2nd, 2010 at 4:30 am
January 4th, 2010 at 3:05 am
dont know if any body has said it but i guess i will.
Alchemist nerfed with his stun which is now harder to use is it not? i got a feeling that Alchemist is gonna be left out in most games now because he can now stun himself for 7.5 seconds??? but then again he was uber without that forced self stun skill, so think that it is a good thing
January 4th, 2010 at 11:40 am
Murloc seems to be impossible to chase and take down as slarder also Murloc can cancel out his ultimate. (absolutely no chance in a pros team game)
Avoid picking slarder if u see slark selected.
Gondor, Void, Enigma, Troll, Roof, Lion, Lina, (not shamen) and Kaldr can handle late game slark as a team from my expirence so far.
If both Slark and Kaldr is chosen by a team then the other team will most likely lose.
Good Luck.
January 5th, 2010 at 3:06 am
not really that impossible to chase ya know.
slark can easely taken out if you have stunner/disablers in you’re team.
and loosing when both are picked in 1 team then you just get 1 carry stunner with you