Drayich-Remove Magicstick
Posted by migrees on March 5th, 2010 | Visited 5544 times, 3 so far todayRead here: http://drayich.blogg.se/2010/march/still-extremely-farmoriented-good-or-bad.html
What do you think? Do you agree with what he says?
Summary of Drayich’s post (kudos to folechno):
back in .48b blinking was core to any strategy and the metagame was not much fun since only s fraction of all the heroes were consistently picked
do people want a metagame where a team turtles until the carry gets a certain item? (such as BKB)
Magic Stick is a defensive/turtling item because
1 gives 150/225 hp in a team clash at any time, a great survivability tool
2 when laning Magic Stick discourages fighting and makes it harder to kill people who survive and get some counters on their stick
3 Magic stick also makes it harder to gank people early game assuming they have counters on their stick
4 he hasn’t seen Magic Stick used offensively, only defensively
5 everyone gets Magic Stick, it is defining the metagame
6 Magic Stick helps support heroes survive team clashes -> support heroes have more money to spend on ward -> teams know where the enemy is and can avoid ganks easierSuggestions on how to improve the metagame
1 have cd scale (like Enigma’s BH having less than 200 sec cd in early game to encourage using it)
2 Remove or Rework Magic Stick/Wand
3 Make hero killing more profitable (more gold/exp, giving gold to people who assisted but didn’t get the last hit)
I think Magicstick is fine -_-. But let’s hear everybody’s opinions.
Ready, set GO!
March 5th, 2010 at 8:28 pm
NOOOOOOOOO! I LOVE MAGIC STICK!!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!
March 5th, 2010 at 9:53 pm
Please no.
Its too awesome for pub abuse.
March 5th, 2010 at 10:53 pm
TL;DR
but magic stick is fine in the game
March 5th, 2010 at 11:28 pm
NO…….Dont remove that…thats usefull
March 5th, 2010 at 11:45 pm
Dont Remove Magic Stick Plizzzzzzzzz………….
March 6th, 2010 at 12:45 am
PLzz remove the magic stick 3rd class item no useful
March 6th, 2010 at 12:51 am
Ain’t gonna happen, the frog’s an open book to me. Rest assured
March 6th, 2010 at 1:31 am
Loda:
http://loda.dingblog.com/1010563
Ducky:
http://ddt-ducky.blogspot.com/2010_03_01_archive.html
Me:
Magic Stick/Wand could use some minor reworking, but it doesn’t need to be removed.
March 6th, 2010 at 3:16 am
He somewhat has a point though…
March 6th, 2010 at 3:28 am
What he says makes sense. I wouldn’t mind forgoing the item for more action.
March 6th, 2010 at 5:22 am
I would love to see this removed. That way my Bristleback with own even more. But no really… This is one of the more annoying escape mechanisms.
March 6th, 2010 at 6:27 am
Too long -.-
Magic Stick shouldn’t be removed. If no one uses spells its useless.
March 6th, 2010 at 8:37 am
I have to disagree with a lot of his comments. First, the reason why he won those comeback games was not because of the game’s balance issues, its because the other team began playing poorly. Anyone can understand this, when you start pwning, you get cocky, and you lose.
Second, magic stick isnt as strong as he mentions. 225 hp and mana isnt a lot at all. Espeically later in the game when heroes can deal well over 200 damage per attack. Removing this item would make laning a living hell against certain heroes like BB. The instantaneous regen is very fair, since it gives only very little amount of hp/mana.
Lower cooldowns on ultis will be the downfall of Dota. Reducing cooldowns will NOT allow more team battles. In fact, it will do the opposite. Teams need to be able to take advantage of a failed Haunt by Spectre, or a bad BH by Enigma. This is why Dota has strategy.
March 6th, 2010 at 8:44 am
I think he`s right.
I use the stick in every game an even pubbers slowly realize its awesomeness.
In a pub, when you can get your team to buy sticks, the game sometimes is allmost over.
March 6th, 2010 at 9:31 am
so return the old dagger and remove magic stick?
i agree with a nod
March 7th, 2010 at 7:59 am
I agree completely with everything DaMan said
Drayich does make some valid points
Magic Stick is a great survivability tool in team clashes and does help the support survive easier (so they can then ward more), but when he says that he has only seen Magic Stick in a defensive capacity he is wrong, because Magic stick can grant instant hp and mana, it is a great item for playing mind games with and is helpful when playing aggressively. It forces the opponent to play smarter, and rewards those who do. Additionally, I would say it fosters more action early game because it effectively increases a hero’s hp/mana pools so they can then do more, and even if it does make it harder to kill people the clashes will just last longer (which again means you have to have a better strategy or stronger heroes)
IceFrog is currently pushing the metagame to being very gank heavy, he is introducing items (like Stick/Wand, Urn, new Aghs) that are cheap and help those who gank a lot. He is also changing or completely remaking late game carries so that they have slight more potential earlier in the game. Tower denies now give the other team gold, less gold than if they killed the tower but that is still better than nothing. All these changes encourage an aggressive, gank oriented play style. Sure a team could get around this by picking a defensive team that would turtle until a point where they can win, but a good team would be able to choose heroes to counter this strategy and should be able to stop them.
Some suggestions that could encourage ganking without breaking the game
1 decreasing creep gold (maybe by like 10 apiece so they still give some but over time it would add up)
2 increase exp given for hero kill in mid game (have it scale up with level, more than it does now)
3 give a small amount of gold to heroes who assisted a kill and are within the 1000 units needed to gain exp, maybe like 50 gold, this helps people who assists and prevents abuse (such as SB charging from base, not anywhere close but would get the assist)
4 reducing the aoe that gives Magic Stick charges, meaning you have to be much closer to the action and it won’t signal that PotM is arrowing quite as well
If you have the time read some of the comments on Drayich’s post, one user named Otso makes very good points and also shows how a good ganking team can beat out a carry team, as shown by the following replay http://www.gosugamers.net/dota/replays/29112
Also you should check out Quack’s post that Serpentson mentioned, as he gives a game analysis on how TS lost even though they won the early game.
March 7th, 2010 at 9:30 am
Instead of just removing it, maybe up the mana restoration per charge while decreasing the health regen. This might make it a more aggressive rather than defensive item
March 7th, 2010 at 4:52 pm
Noo I love it to make great against heroes like Zeus’s (Spammers)
March 7th, 2010 at 9:29 pm
what folechno said, especially in the aggressiveness of the Magic Stick/Wand. for example, Zeus has more mana this way and can actually cast his ulti
March 8th, 2010 at 5:55 am
i dun lik this item ever since it came out. it is just lik a bottle. nearly every hero can use bottle. i lik how u can survive a lot and its cheap. although i hate how u get the charges coz it requires a hero to spam a spell to get the charges. this also is good but it is good for tankers lik slardar that need to eat spells. its good if you need the burst health and mana burn if ur a thin hero.. ur gonna be dead before. i think it isnt a turtle item. seriously i think it discouridges it. it allows team battles to last longer. magic stick (the first 1) sorta is turtlin but the upgrade isnt. coz it requires u to spend extra so u get an advantage in battle. so people stay longer in the lane and more gankin can happen coz last time bottle couldnt regen from runes as they didnt spawn a lot and u have to go to fountain. now u spam bottle and magic stick for mana and battle control. XD.
March 8th, 2010 at 11:00 pm
As far as my mind goes, I think of hp regen by the stick as it’s defensive part while mana regen the offensive. If we want the game to get more action packed, nerfing the defensive part comes as the first thought. Dray proposes of removing the item completely from the game. But wouldn’t that actually make the game imbalanced? Doesn’t that mean that every healing spell forms a part of defensive mechanism and therefore, should be removed? This would also mean removing the concept of armor and spell resistance, because they basically serve similar functions. But if we think about it again, doesn’t healing help pushing? Doesn’t high armor promote tower diving? Everything can be seen in two different perspectives and magic stick is no exception.
My first point is, an item never makes a game imbalanced because it is the same for both the teams. [Although the item itself might not be in the perfect shape :)]
My second point is, one can always find aggressiveness and defensiveness in the same multi-use item/spell, it’s only a matter of how people view it. We can think of hp regen as a defensive ability or an ability to promote pushing.
For my third point, let us suppose Icefrog codes magic stick such that we also get a charge for using a spell… I know it’s a broken concept but don’t you think that would actually promote aggressiveness? DotA is not a game where you can really talk much of logic. After all, it’s a magic stick ;).
My suggestion for the time being is simple, remove charging up magic stick for spells that don’t deal damage to you. I mean, it’s always a moment of rejoice when enemy doom eats up 5 creeps
(maybe just nullify the hp regen coz mana regen is the ‘offensive’ part).
March 9th, 2010 at 5:23 am
@phoenix
I think the reason why Magic Stick doesnt give charges for allied spells is cause then everyone will be spamming their spells with each other in their fountain and have a bonus 150 hp when going to lane. Or they will “farm” their charges right before a team battle.
March 9th, 2010 at 10:10 am
im going to say now that stick is a utility tool, something that is used for map awareness as well as burst regen. Besides ring and mek, what else gives burst regen that increase surviablity? honestly, people who say this is just for spammers are ignorant to the face that if there’s a sk on their team missing and a charge pops up, you might get blink/epi in a couple of seconds. this gives people who play well an advantage over those who do not. i dont find the regen unbalanced as the burst aspect is, same with the upper hand in map awareness.
March 9th, 2010 at 6:32 pm
I ThinK It’S quiTe BaLanCeD. . TheRe’S NotHIng wroNg witH It. .
March 9th, 2010 at 7:17 pm
hmm… That can be dealth with… allow charges only in enemy presence maybe.
March 11th, 2010 at 7:18 am
well, i’d say that magic stick should be ingame, but one important thing: there should be a gold bounty for all assist, so that it is better to teamwork than just play solo ^^
March 11th, 2010 at 9:53 pm
first of all, magic stick WAS MADE TO SURVIVE and btw you are saying:
“gives 150/225 hp in a team clash at any time” IS IT AT “ANY” TIME? answer: NO
“Magic stick also makes it harder to gank people” DUUH ITS SUPPOSSED TO DO THAT
so if you dont like it, go demand IceFrog but Magic Stick is fine, if you dont use it, its your problem.
March 13th, 2010 at 1:44 am
yea i agree with the gold when it comes with assists. so no problems with KSes during clashes. XD
March 13th, 2010 at 5:49 am
Not overpowered. With a stunner in a gank (provided u can kill that fast) its easy to kill them before they can use it. However, I think it shoudlnt work for skills such as bristlebacks’s bristles, or PAs dagger. It should have a limit to what CD the skill is for it to work.
March 14th, 2010 at 12:42 am
magic stick is my most basic item
even there is less mage / spam hero ( such as bristleback shadow fiend )
i still buy magic stick
its very good base item ^_^
March 14th, 2010 at 3:51 am
This is not an imba item and it should not be removed. First of all, it helps with ganks in which almost all ganks will ensure a kill. Magic stick then makes surviving ganks a bit easier. Tell me, don’t you all hate to get ganked? Getting pawned everytime when there are ganks and your strategy failed? First put yourself in the shoes of those being ganked. Betcha you hate that. That’s why magic stick is created, to at least detect wheter there’s an enemy in the vaccinty and to survive and give some heal.
And i’m sorry, i dunno whether you’ll agree or disagree with me. Which is important , improving your games and winning for the team? or pleasing the fans? I love a good game, hell yeah, but your team, your fight and your strategy is more important than my viewing pleasure. If turtling’s the way to go, then so be it. Hope you understand what i’m saying.
March 14th, 2010 at 8:13 am
@Isak & captainCrazy
We actually do get gold for assisting already.
March 14th, 2010 at 12:53 pm
@Phoenix
We do? IIRC no, unless the sentinel gets the kill, then the assisters will split the gold.
March 16th, 2010 at 8:19 pm
@migrees
right.
March 17th, 2010 at 4:14 pm
@migrees
I think its either 40 or 60 gold given to all nearby allies in a large area around the killed enemy. Not sure on this
March 18th, 2010 at 2:36 pm
I haven’t ever seen that change in the changelog or noticed it in game…hmmm.
March 19th, 2010 at 3:04 am
pls don’t remove. now that i’ve decided not to waste gold on stat adders like wraiths and bracers magic stick is the only cheap thing gives extra stats that i could use early. plus if u save charges u could save urself from death since it heals immediately and not overtime. I must say it’s saved me from at least 10 ganks.
March 20th, 2010 at 8:27 am
I don’t think MS/MW is overpowered at all…
it was made to be used against spammers giving you a higher survivability chance but to remove it from triggering with BB’s quills would just be to imbalanced…
those skill have low cooldowns and high damage overtime so it means that 150/225 hp and mana is not enough to counter BB’s quills or riki’s blink strike, blink strike plus riki’s normal attack can deal well over 200 dmg (every 5 secs considering the BS cooldown) so it means you can recieve an estimated 300 damage total just for 2 charges (30 mana and hp)…
before you even get 15 charges from BB’s quill spray, you’ll be dead by then…
If you are laned with a spammer like zeus or ogre magi, would you risk a 300 plus hp just for 2 charges? who would be that stupid?
so no… I dont think MS/MW is overpowered at all…
March 21st, 2010 at 5:39 am
Assists should definitely have bigger payoffs.
March 21st, 2010 at 6:10 pm
omg!!!
magic stick is no imba!!
you can’t heal yourself if your opponent never cast a spell!!
see?
is balanced!!!
March 23rd, 2010 at 10:18 am
Magic stick wouldn’t be the first thing I fix. That fuckin urn is rediculous iff the whole team gets one.
March 25th, 2010 at 7:54 am
MS/MW seems to fit the timeline of DotA.
There are a lot of great changes made, like the aghanim’s scepter which can now be used by Crix, Raigor, Barathrum, Venge, and other gankers.
I always play pub games and I noticed that one of the mostly used ganking strats is the 3-1-1 laning which consists of 3 stunners/disablers in a lane while the other 2 go solo farming in other lanes. The system almost never fails, before 2 mins FIRST BLOOD!, instant gold… with the MS/MW introduced, survivability increases and instant gold is not that easy to get anymore making it better.
Besides, who would even enjoy a game when it takes just one early strategy to win the game??
March 27th, 2010 at 4:57 am
removing the stick become so hard to me
thats my favorite item in the game ;p