Which is Better, Two Bashers or Radiance?

No ending time set.
Two Bashers 51% [ 29 ]


Radiance 48% [ 27 ]

Basher Vs Radiance

Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:14 am

Ok, people probably already know why I am posting this, but I am really curious to see what you think.

2 Bashers
- cost around 6400
- Do 60 damage
- Give 27.5% chance to "bash", stunning for 1.1 seconds and dealing extra 25 damage.

Radiance
- costs 5325
- does 60 damage
- deals immolation damage of 35/second

Now, I look at this, and I think it is a no-brainer to go for bash. Both are good only when you are very close to an opponent, meaning that if you are melee, you will be more than likely be attacking your target already.

To me, farming items like Radiance and Battlefury are for the weak. Maybe chasers can benefit more from Radiance, and maybe heroes with innate cleave and a need for regen can stack it with Battlefury. But otherwise, I just don't get farming items like these.

I am willing to pay 1000 more for that priceless stun, given I do the same damage as the alternative, and that bashers are easier to farm for.

The 2 item slots vs 1 argument seems pointless, because most games end well before you can attain a dream build that will utilize your items slots anyway.

Of course, we are talking about heroes with innate attack speed, and that rely on their attack instead of INT nukers. Basically, only heroes that would consider DPS are the ones to focus on for this question, melee in particular.

I am also limiting this to only 2 bashers or radiance, because if I chose DPS, I'd get Buriza and not radiance. I really think it's a choice between 2 bashers and buriza (which to me is a much harder decision), but most people have commented in favor of radiance than anything else, which further perplexes me, except it is a pandemic on dota-allstars.com.

Your thoughts?



P.S., I did do a search on this before posting, but didn't turn up anything similar. So, I apologize in advance if this is already somewhere in the vast library of posts.
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:26 am

radiance still for me.. would someone in a team game let you bash their ally to death? no they wouldn't.

radiance gives ENOURMOUS AoE damage, especially when they are many. look, example that there are 12 enemies near you.

12 x 35 = 420. so you deal 420 total damage PER SECOND. and the damage goes on even if you are stunned or disabled. you cant bash if you are stunned or disabled right?

plus, twin bashers do take a lot of space in your inventory, and yes that's true that you cant finish all your dream items in one game, but radiance makes that one step more possible.

+60 damage is just good.
the 8% evasion is just an extra.
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:32 am

Basher is a horrible choice as a DPS item for it's cost. Permabash doesn't isn't as effective in team games either.

Radiance doesn't give you a 60 damage boost technically it gives you a 95 damage boost. Also since your saying that you are referring to a melee hero that means that your opponents will be within range of radiance 90% of the time. With a radiance you are dealing damage to the entire team where as bashers only targets one hero. You can continue to deal damage to a hero even without attacking it which really helps alot in chasing.

Even though you are facing off against only 1 hero you'll deal superior damage with the radiance since bash's 25 damage bonus doesn't happen all the time while radiance's 35 damage bonus happens every second.

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Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:51 am

Hm...although I am surprised at the certainty of your responses, I am still not at all convinced.

First and foremost, to me, Radiance is ALSO horrible DPS for the cost. 60 damage for 5300?!? Buriza costs barely more than this, and gives you a critical that 20% of the time will net at the very least an extra 150 damage, just taking the item's innate damage into consideration. And MKB? Costs the SAME as Radiance, does more damage, and can trigger a 100 damage mini-nuke 30% of the time. These are far, far superior items in the DPS department, so I'm guessing people deciding between Bash and Radiance are not thinking of pure DPS.

Radiance does not give you a 95 damage boost, because most heroes getting radiance or bash hit a lot faster than once per second. In that sense, I consider bash damage to do similar damage, albeit to one target.

Second, radiance doesn't stack. 5 radiances on 5 heroes = 35 damage per second.

Third, 35 damage/second is not enormous, when heroes fall in less than 3 seconds, if not entire teams, in coordinated team battles.

Fourth, 12 targets is not realistic, unless you are defending a tower and need to counter push. But there are so, so many heroes with innate counter-pushing skills (KotL, Axe, Levi, TS, Lina, list goes on) that getting Radiance for this purpose seems like your team made a bad choice in picking heroes to begin with to have to rely on radiance.

Fifth, bash IS superior 1v1, because bash may happen once every 1 or 2 seconds. This halves, if not completely shuts down, damage against you. Usually opponents in this situation will have to rely on blink to get away. You come out relatively unscathed, whereas with Radiance, they will still blink away if they have it, and you will be hurt a lot more before they do, and much more vulnerable to a team heading your way. Remember that damage will be similar if you are getting one bash every 1-2 seconds.

Now, I've seen arguments like yours before, and I'm guessing that no matter what I put down here, you will remain unconvinced as well. C'est la vie.


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Last edited by Greedygood on Mon May 28, 2007 6:57 am; edited 1 time in total

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Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:51 am

Radiance is a Multi-Purpose item. Good for Farming, Chasing, or just Annoying your opponent. A hero who farms well ends up with good items, and we all know what that means. GG for the opponent. Radiance for me.
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:55 am

bashers are for plain 1 on 1s. which 1 on 1 games dont prove anything that you are better than your opponent. team games are what makes people better. again i will say, no opponent will let you bash his or her teammate to death. and i repeat, you can't bash when you are stunned or disabled, yet radiance still damages opponents.
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 6:58 am

Look, Think about it. With Radiance, you can Farm without doing anything. Just passing by a wave of creeps could give you 40 - 200 Gold. Basher could be good for some heroes, but overall Radiance will ALWAYS beat Basher.
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:04 am

I've seen yr naix guide and the 2 basher parts really generated a lot of controversy in the comments. I used to think like 'oh 2 bashers superb' until i looked at my hp and realised that in team battles i was just feeding to the team. If you like bashers just get 1 because 6000+ for so little hp is suicidal in a team-oriented game as dota.

But then again, notice that basher-viable heroes often don't get their places in team clashes. Why? It's because bashers only work on one target. Seriously do you think you can bash the hell outta someone in a 5v5? Hardly. So it's not surprising that many carry builds now almost always contain a radiance. If you like those 1v1, 2v2, even 3v3 pubs, then bashers work. Otherwise, count me out - i'm not a basher supporter.

EDIT: You know why ppl are unconvinced about bashers > radiance? Try convincing higher lvl players about bashers > radiance. You'll see they will argue better than anyone of us here. Look at their replays. Which one of them actually built bashers? But you see verge.tijon building radiance for syllabear. I don't see bashers on Pandemic's beastmaster despite his lightning ASPD.
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Last edited by caspian on Mon May 28, 2007 7:14 am; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:07 am

Your Naix guide is great, the ONLY thing I disagree about is the Bashers. Sange and Yasha's Maim Effect is enough. Your Poison Sting will slow the enemy enough for you to be able to kill him.

@Topic
RADIANCE FOR EVAH!!
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:15 am

"bashers are for plain 1 on 1s. which 1 on 1 games dont prove anything that you are better than your opponent. team games are what makes people better. again i will say, no opponent will let you bash his or her teammate to death. and i repeat, you can't bash when you are stunned or disabled, yet radiance still damages opponents."

In such a situation, Radiance will do at MOST 35/second, which, again, simply is not that much in most team battles. Team battles end quickly, and usually result in a chase. Your CHASER can get Radiance, and it would be a very logical decision. But I can't think of anyone else, unless it's a meat grinder like Axe.

Radiance is far less annoying than knowing that there is someone with a potential permanent disable on the opposing team, IMO. Perhaps the chaser on your team can get the lone radiance, and others get bash. I can see ONE radiance in a team benefitting, but not the pandemic advocated in dota-allstars.com, or the one I see materializing in this thread.

Bashers will allow you to take one person of the opposition OUT of the battle in a team game. If this person happens to be their primary DPS dealer, the opposition now has a real problem. They may not be ABLE to save their teammate from a basher and a good team behind him, because they may have found out that a 4v5 is not good business for them.

I really do not understand why people do not consider a stun invaluable in a team battle. This is what bashers can give you. Bashers can be incredible in a team environment, because if you are attacking, you are coming closer and closer to completely disabling your target. In a team environment, DPS is trumped by disables and stuns. Bashers give you that. Furthermore, basher DPS and Radiance DPS is very similar, and as stated above, I simply cannot accept that Radiance is a good DPS item. MKB and Buriza FAR outweigh Radiance in this regard. This relegates radiance to

1) having one AT MOST in a team battle

2) chasing

3) farming

Well thanks Rai for the compliment, I do appreciate it. Unlike most people, you actually think the guide is good AND you don't like bashers. That's a rarity indeed. Most people trash the guide if they have a religious bias against bash.

I want to emphasize that this isn't about anything "personal" or what not, this is meant to be a discussion about which is better in what capacity.
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Last edited by Greedygood on Mon May 28, 2007 8:10 am; edited 2 times in total

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Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:21 am

yes, stun is really good in team battles, but AGAIN I REPEAT.

WOULD SOMEONE LET YOU BASH THEIR ALLY?? that's why bash isn't good cuz it relies on chances. sure stuns are better, like storm bolt or magic missile. 27.5% chance will let you bash at most once every 3 attacks. the other team could simply use a single disable on you and it's the end for you. a 4 second voodoo is already enough to take a hero out with an ally or 2.
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:27 am

"the other team could simply use a single disable on you and it's the end for you. a 4 second voodoo is already enough to take a hero out with an ally or 2."

Right there, RIGHT THERE, you point out what in my mind is why Radiance is also not good in a team capacity. Let's say they do this to the holder of Radiance. Why ouchie, 120 damage. Now you're dead. And, if we waited another 4 seconds to kill someone else first, ouchie, 240 damage, now you're dead. Having bashers forces the opponents to seriously think about engaging you first, lest you disable an additional person (besides that little critter your team is wailing on) This may take focus off of your DPS teammate, who will be the one actually killing everyone on the screen. Or, you may elect to hide behind a tank, let him soak damage for a second or two, and then begin bashing someone.

Remember again, that the DPS aspect of Radiance is NOT superior to two bashers, they both do 60 damage for similar cost. An opponent would be equally afraid of either build's DPS potential.

This is very interesting, BTW.


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Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:30 am

The thing with being a permabasher in team games, is that the enemy WILL recognize you as a strong character, so they will most likely take you out first, especially if you're attacking their carry hero. Some players neglect the immolation of radiance and will take a lot of damage without knowing what caused it. I myself only get 1 basher, rather invest in Hyperstone for ASPD or vanguard for health which DPS heroes lack, which both cost at least 1000 less than a second basher.
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:32 am

good, i just remembered.

in team games, radiance holders are mostly the tankers which are melee, and when a radiance holder is melee, that means you are nearer to the enemies which means more enemy units affected by radiance, and when people engage the tanker, that's good since the others can now start their comboes.

that's what tankers are for. tanking while doing some damage.
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Posted: Mon May 28, 2007 7:36 am

You said:
"In such a situation, Radiance will do at MOST 35/second, which, again, simply is not that much in most team battles. Team battles end quickly , and usually result in a chase. Your CHASER can get Radiance, and it would be a very logical decision. But I can't think of anyone else, unless it's a meat grinder like Axe."

Why do team battles end quickly? Through the synergistic chaining of nukes and abilities. Especially the scourge lineups that emphasize AoE, ie sand king, qop, leshrac, pugna, visage. How are you going to survive after bashing, let's say, the carry hero qop/visage, with all the AoE?

And then the sentinel VS, Beastmaster, Jakiro, Chen, Syllabear. 4 of them have stuns, 1 has this orb effect that is better than a bash. Who are you going to bash? Whoever you are planning to bash, the bear is coming after you 1st. Definitely.
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