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What makes a Carry - Pub's pick vs League's Pick

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Counter_Force[X]

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Beyond Godlike Posts: 6890 Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Warnings : 2 8252 gold

What makes a Carry - Pub's pick vs League's Pick



Due to random popping of carry threads recently which are mainly comparing league carries against public carries, and because I am involved with a program starting tomorrow, I decided to make this thread based on the one of the leaguer’s top carry; Boush the Tinker. He will be the main comparing example.

First, let us start with the definition of a carry. A carry hero is a hero who ultimately wins most of the game for his team. This can be achieved through 2 ways, which is to establish total dominance or by accumulate sufficient firepower to bring down the tree/throne before your opponents do. A natural carry hero will usually have skills relegated on fulfilling these 2 purposes. Whether he does that via his inventories or skills, that don’t matter, but it does determine how good he is as a carry.

Let’s take a very classic example; a Mortred with 2 battle furies, BKB, Butterfly, Treads and Satanic is a strong carry; there’s no way a tinker can beat her. But can she get all that faster than a Tinker could get a Shiva-Guinsoo which would give him the capacity to end a game? The strength of a hero as a carry is related to his/her skillset and attributes; a strong carry have more than just potential; he CAN achieve it.

Leaguers define a good carry from a 3-point evaluation; survival, control and true potential. Heroes that can survive and deal damage(Krobelus, Morphling, Raijin), heroes that grants control(Visage, Slardar, Specter) and heroes that have the true potential(Dirge, Ursa, Sniper).

So back to Tinker, why is he a carry hero is a class way ahead of Mortred/Void/Troll? First of all, Tinker have a solid early game; he is likely to be a liability to any team as he is very strong in ganks with his Laser+Rocket combo and he’s indefinitely mobile once he gets his boots. All these are very important criteria in pre-determining whether a hero is a strong carry or not. Most of a game’s outcome is determined in the first 20 minutes. Mortred/Void/Troll is unlikely to be as contributing to the team as a Tinker is. This gives him an advantage as a carry as he can help his team secure early dominance.

Second, let’s look at his farming capability. Tinker with Travels is undoubtedly the most mobile and dynamic hero in the game. He’s almost impossible to gank and can easily reload his HP/MP using rearm. This gives him durability and opportunity; he can farm, push and gank safely. Tinker’s March is also a strong farming skill; one may agree if viewed from a single spell-perspective, but the combination of Travels + Rearm + March gives Tinker immense farming efficiency when compared to Mortred/Troll. You can’t counter his farm unlike how you could when against Troll using wards. Needless to say, a Tinker will always be richer than a Troll in an all-player competent game.

Third, let’s view them from item build perspective. Carries like Void/Mortred will revolve their build around damage first before going to survivability. In this progression, there will likely be drawbacks; physical is a very weak method of damage dealing unless you acquired the mechanism to establish the maneuver(BKB in this case) whereas Tinker carries his team with pushing power and high capacity disables which will never be undefined; that is the real thing you need to win a game.

Fourth, a hero with huge physical damage output are more vulnerable as they have to be in close range compared to a carry that relies on spells. This is simplified as spatial advantage and effective control over variables. You will always be the aim of ganks, enemies in clashes and disables. This further mitigates your carry potential as you have to work far harder.

In a nutshell, a Mortred, Troll, Void or almost any DPS carries that needs to farm up will never be as strong as a carry like Tinker or Morph. You should never evaluate a carry’s strength on pulling out kills after 40 minutes of free farming; rather, view a hero as a whole.

Last edited by Counter_Force[X] on Fri Nov 20, 2009 3:40 am; edited 1 time in total


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Shankapotamus

Mega Kill Posts: 622 Joined: 11 May 2009 15624 gold



Nothing else to say than good job.

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Counter_Force[X]

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waiting for troll pros

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bobbob247

Godlike Posts: 1569 Joined: 21 Jan 2008 68795 gold



Nice job, but I classify carries into two categories. Mid and late game. Mid game carries are meant to get kills early and mid game, farm up a decent amount, and are generally decent gankers. Late game carries are heros, like you write as pub carries: Luna, Troll, Void, PA.

With the current way DotA is, midgame carries are being favored over lategame ones, especially ganking carries. So while most pub carries are the lategame kind, the leaguers prefer the midgame carries, who fit well with the current game style.

With the end of turtling play and the new ganking era, the lategame carries are being swapped for more useful midgame carries.
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varunshenoyg

Beyond Godlike Posts: 2894 Joined: 16 Dec 2007 83792 gold



TROLLLLLL!

Nice article, speaking of which- why are you not doing the blogging job requested back in Gold Heaven by Orochi?
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Counter_Force[X]

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Beyond Godlike Posts: 6890 Joined: 13 Aug 2007 Warnings : 2 8252 gold



this article does not encourage discussion, but rants Sad


meh i'll remember to do better


@bobbob
im sure they understand why i compare mort-tink all the time


@vsg
nah

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quale

Chambermaid Posts: 2234 Joined: 13 Aug 2007 58991 gold



i thought this is a "pub vs league" pic carry. rather this is a "tinker vs dps/permabasher carry".

question: what kind of carry is tinker? he's not a DPS-er, not a permabasher, not an illusion-based carry.
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Ramirox

Monster Kill Posts: 326 Joined: 28 Nov 2008 Warnings : 1 7576 gold



great writing skils you have CFX, I have still yet to master tinker, I find him an amazing hero.

PS: you are on your way to be a very very VERY good blogger. (yes, three times)
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horur

Mega Kill Posts: 889 Joined: 18 Nov 2007 Warnings : 2 28639 gold



Great topic, just as the Bristleback topic was, thumbs up counterforce. I'm still eager to see if the pro-mort/troll/void people will actually read and understand this.
I would say, there are not many carry heroes that can counter Tinker, especially not when it comes to early game potential, farming potential, pushing potential or carry potential. But I will name my top contenders:
Raijin Thunderkeg and Morphling.
U mention Morphling urself and him and tinker are very much alike. They both possess early game potential with their nukes, both with an advantage each: Tinker's being the devastating double nuke, and Morph with a high dmg AOE nuke that can work as chaser, initiator or escaper.
They can both farm and push very well, Tinker with Travels and Machines, Morph with Wave, Travels and Replicate, add a Manta on top of that and Morph might even out push Tinker.
They both have that amazing mobility, Tinker's being more reliable with his Travels + Rearm, but Morphling with travels and his replicate will also be able to hop around fast, and he will even, with Manta, be able to push two lanes quite effectively with two images + replicate in one lane and the real Morph in another.
Now how they will fare against each other, and how their contributions to their team respectively I cant say. It will come down to many things and many variables will have influence.
Now Panda against Tinker. Here's a different scenario. Panda has the skillset to be efficient early game, a good and mobile ganker. But his downside to Tinker is that he doenst have quite the same mobility as Tinker nor does he posess the same pushing power. However, he works very well as a counter to tinker because of his pseudo global blink. With some anticipation, mindgames with help from his team and a partner or two he can take down the lane hopping Tinker. His only really expensive skill, mana wise, is his ultimate but when he gets Blood Stone he can jump very far and even if he has little mana left after the jump, the mana regen of BS will quickly bring his mana up again. He's a great hero because of his anti-Tinker ultimate, but also because with him it doesnt require the whole team to focus on ganking Tinker. Now, he just needs a teammate, perferably with Travels and they can gank Tinker very effectively.
So those two, are to me, the most obvious counterparts to Tinker.

And to end I wanna give another thumbs up for creating these more in debth discussions than whats regular on this site. GG WP.
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nny2567

Monster Kill Posts: 341 Joined: 27 Aug 2008 9022 gold



i agree that troll will never be as rich as a tinker but why not instead of 40 mins of free farming how about 15-20 max ganking from then on?
imho a good troll(since you like him as an example) can get more then a spec anyday thanks to his range capabilities in a lane or jungling capabilities if he has good ward support from his team/self
that being said
A tinker that can utterly destroy the other members of his team early he has almost no chance and i agree there so yes it is the dying of super late gamers but possibly also the birth of the reformation of them being made into (late)midgame and late game gankers and letting the pushers carry the lanes while they hold off the heroes
but i am eager to hear your response so have at it Smile
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DiZ-aSS

Mega Kill Posts: 506 Joined: 17 May 2008 Warnings : 1 14771 gold



this is very good. i totaly support you aobut tinker > mort/void/troll.
people dont understand how uberly epic tinker actuly is. as soon as he gets his BoT he is the ultimate farmer. when he gets guinsoo he can perma hex 2 people at the same time, nearly 3 people. normally its jsut 1 person but you can get 2 if you need too.
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bobbob247

Godlike Posts: 1569 Joined: 21 Jan 2008 68795 gold



@nny: Spectre can make money and some XP by providing a global gank. Dagger is also a decent escape mechanism. Also, a disabled troll does nothing for the team. A disabled spectre still deals damage.
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jnevill

Dominating Posts: 124 Joined: 05 Dec 2008 2567 gold



i like where your heads at with the strength of tinker and morphling earlier in the game which then contributes to their later effectiveness. But carries like mortred can still farm effectively and their effectiveness can't be denied if well played and supported, although that goes for every hero.

The late carries can join on ganks as well... although will be no where nearly as effective as morph or tinker. Nor will they get the gold to farm up as well.

So i agree there has been a shift to 'carries' that are stronger earlier. However the longer the game strings out the weaker they will become. Teams will keep changing to different strategies to adapt and become more efficient and effective, i dont think the true carries will be replaced... merely skipped to adapt to this current style of play.. which will change over the longer term..

yeah that all makes sense in my head...
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BlowThaCandlesOut

Godlike Posts: 1507 Joined: 01 Aug 2009 36901 gold



Whut still no pro-troll people. Pffft.
Anyhow another nice thread by CFX. IMO Krobelus > Tinker, only cuz I haven't been owned by a Tinker before. Not playing much DotA now ..
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terrn300

Monster Kill Posts: 271 Joined: 10 Jan 2008 8190 gold



Guinsgo + Mana Regen + Rearm > Troll

Unlimited Disable as long as mana permits.
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